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Old 09-07-2011, 10:20 AM   #21
Sundog
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Default Re: Fren Tubo brake lines

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Originally Posted by PJFZ1 View Post
Do you want me to explain my reasoning, or leave this for others?
Please do explain your reasoning.


Having the extra fittings to pass through - I get that eliminating those would be good, but I would think this would influence the braking only a tiny fraction compared to changing out the material of the lines. After all, there shouldn't be all that much flow through the system except right at first as the pads move a little bit to contact the rotor. After that, the increased braking force is accomplished by compressing the fluid.

One argument I've heard *for* the single line that splits, is that the total length of line used is reduced. The fluid pressure is going to be equal throughout the system, so the less line in the system the better. Again, I would judge this to be a small difference in comparison to the gains you get with switching the hose material.

Another argument for two lines is that racing maintenance is simpler. Makes sense, but not applicable to me.
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Old 09-07-2011, 10:46 AM   #22
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Default Re: Fren Tubo brake lines

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Please do explain your reasoning.
Having the extra fittings to pass through - I get that eliminating those would be good, but I would think this would influence the braking only a tiny fraction compared to changing out the material of the lines. After all, there shouldn't be all that much flow through the system except right at first as the pads move a little bit to contact the rotor. After that, the increased braking force is accomplished by compressing the fluid.

One argument I've heard *for* the single line that splits, is that the total length of line used is reduced. The fluid pressure is going to be equal throughout the system, so the less line in the system the better. Again, I would judge this to be a small difference in comparison to the gains you get with switching the hose material.

Another argument for two lines is that racing maintenance is simpler. Makes sense, but not applicable to me.
You are right in that the changing of the material is where the majority of the gains are realized. You do have an incorrect statement in "the increased braking force is accomplished by compressing the fluid" The entire principal of hydraulics (and that's brakes) is that fluids are not compressible.

For the difference in one or two line setups, the 2-line is strictly a marketing ploy started by one of the brake line manufacturers. I'm not one to point fingers at companies or brands, but I believe I know which company started it, and they also make poor lines but own a large part of the market. As far as 2-lines being for racing.. another misnomer.. Look at MotoGP bikes.. a split line front setup, and they are allowed to run whatever they want. World superbike? Strictly a split line setup.. Now I will agree that the 2 line setup is cool and looks good, but it isn't better than a 3 line front. With Quality lines it is very close to as good, and most of us are O.K. running it, but it isn't the best setup from the standpoint of performance.

The Reason it's better is simpler - LESS TOTAL LINE. It's not the volume of the lines or how direct the lines are.. Hydraulics don't care, as long as they aren't restricted, 100 pounds of force into one end of the vessel equals 100 pounds of force out if there is no air (to get compressed). BUT - if there is expansion of the lines, the expansion takes energy, just like compressing the air if it's present.

I'm going to try to explain this pretty simply, and I'll probably screw it up, and I'm using some made up figures for the sake of illustration:

Imagine the distance from your master cylinder to your calipers is 40 inches. You are deciding between direct or stock line length, and the splitter is right at the halfway point of the distance..

So with a direct 2 line setup, you have 80 total inches of line.
With a 3-line setup, you have 60 inches of line (20 to the split, then 2 20 inch sections).

Brake lines must flex, so they can't be completely rigid like a metal dydraulic cylinder. Therefore there is a small bit of expansion in the line material. The quality of the material and manufacturing have alot to do with it, but all lines have some expansion.

So if you are losing hydraulic energy to expanding the line, which loses more, the 60 inches of 3-line setup, or the 80 inches of direct lines? It's obviously the 2 line setup that will have more loss, but when the quality of the material is good, the difference in the 2 lines is pretty small, but the split line front is better if the materials and fluids are the same.
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Old 09-07-2011, 10:57 AM   #23
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Default Re: Fren Tubo brake lines

Very, very, well-explained, PJ. Even I understood that!
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Old 09-07-2011, 12:12 PM   #24
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Default Re: Fren Tubo brake lines

To be clear, I've never heard anything bad about Fren Tubo's aluminum fittings, just aluminum fittings in general. And if I recall, the bulk of the anti-aluminum info came from one company that was pushing its steel-fitting lines.

But PJ, thanks for putting my mind at ease.
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Old 09-07-2011, 02:10 PM   #25
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Default Re: Fren Tubo brake lines

LOL, for some reason I didn't realize who I was talking to, PJFZ1. So when I said "One argument I've heard *for* the single line that splits"... yeah, that was PJ over the phone when I was ordering parts.

PJ, any news on my new Mivv? And thanks for the quick delivery on the rizoma bar ends.

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Old 09-07-2011, 06:09 PM   #26
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Default Re: Fren Tubo brake lines

I took it out for a proper test run this evening, and there is a noticeable improvement. It just isn't where I expected it. I thought I would feel a more immediate response with less pull of the lever. Actually, the initial bite isn't any stronger or faster, but once the lever is pulled in a ways it seems like the brake dig in a little more than they used to. The improvement is noticeable during a strong braking maneuver, like coming off the interstate, but not very noticeable during light braking.

A happy side effect is that the very faint low speed brake pulsing/chatter that I'd grown used to over the past few years is now gone. I'm not sure how changing brake lines fixed that.
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Old 09-07-2011, 06:12 PM   #27
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Default Re: Fren Tubo brake lines

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LOL, for some reason I didn't realize who I was talking to, PJFZ1. So when I said "One argument I've heard *for* the single line that splits"... yeah, that was PJ over the phone when I was ordering parts.

PJ, any news on my new Mivv? And thanks for the quick delivery on the rizoma bar ends.
HAHA!! Sundog - Yep. it's me..

And I think your pipe should be next week..
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Old 09-07-2011, 06:48 PM   #28
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Default Re: Fren Tubo brake lines

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I took it out for a proper test run this evening, and there is a noticeable improvement. It just isn't where I expected it. I thought I would feel a more immediate response with less pull of the lever. Actually, the initial bite isn't any stronger or faster, but once the lever is pulled in a ways it seems like the brake dig in a little more than they used to. The improvement is noticeable during a strong braking maneuver, like coming off the interstate, but not very noticeable during light braking.

A happy side effect is that the very faint low speed brake pulsing/chatter that I'd grown used to over the past few years is now gone. I'm not sure how changing brake lines fixed that.
For the initial bite issue, it's either a tiny bit of air in the lines or the pads you're running.

The Pulse/Chatter issue is a mystery - I have ideas, but it's too long to type out right now..
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Old 09-07-2011, 09:26 PM   #29
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Default Re: Fren Tubo brake lines

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Originally Posted by PJFZ1 View Post
For the initial bite issue, it's either a tiny bit of air in the lines or the pads you're running.

The Pulse/Chatter issue is a mystery - I have ideas, but it's too long to type out right now..
I'd be interested in your thoughts on the chatter. I get it occasionally on my 599. Very predictable and doesn't affect braking, just feels weird at times.
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Old 09-07-2011, 10:15 PM   #30
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Default Re: Fren Tubo brake lines

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How so? I really don't know of any issue with Fren Tubo Aluminum lines having issues. I've had one set of mine for 4 years, one for 3, and we've not had one single problem from a customer ever 9If we did Fren Tubo would stand behind their product)

I can think of 2 brands that have had problems, one with aluminum, one with steel, and I think both of those were more the fault of the company and the manufacturing process.
Thanks for clearing that up for me. I had read that when aluminum comes into contact with stainless it causes a reaction called electrolysis; causing the aluminum to corrode at a much faster rate. I shouldn't believe everything I read.
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Old 09-07-2011, 10:26 PM   #31
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Default Re: Fren Tubo brake lines

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Thanks for clearing that up for me. I had read that when aluminum comes into contact with stainless it causes a reaction called electrolysis; causing the aluminum to corrode at a much faster rate. I shouldn't believe everything I read.
That's true. It's the rate at which this occurs you need to be concerned about in this case. However, since stainless is an alloy, it's farther separated from aluminum on the galvanic series list than carbon steel would be. The farther apart on the series they are, the more corrosive they are to one another. If it's 304 stainless, then I wouldn't sweat it too much regardless of the application.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_series

Also, for galvanic corrosion to take place, an electrolyte must be present (i.e. water).

It's a real thing, but in practical terms I sincerely doubt it would matter much on something like a brake line fitting. In construction we always separate dissimilar metals to prevent this sort of thing - but we're talking about buildings meant to last 50-100 years and sit in the elements their entire existence. Totally different set of standards.
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Old 09-07-2011, 10:37 PM   #32
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Default Re: Fren Tubo brake lines

Thanks for answering that JBarx - My response would have been less detailed,, basically that it really isn't an issue in our applications, It does happen, but it's really slow and not prone to happening with us.. I've pulled aluminum fitting lines after being installed for 4 years without a problem.
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Old 09-08-2011, 03:03 PM   #33
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Default Re: Fren Tubo brake lines

This thread is full of great information, I've often thought about better lines. I will refer back to this when the time comes...
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Let me introduce you to my taint. It's all sweaty and nasty from having a fever and chills all day yesterday, so it's just about prime for your enjoyment.
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Old 09-08-2011, 03:23 PM   #34
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Default Re: Fren Tubo brake lines

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And I think your pipe should be next week..
Sundog, we better see pics of this
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Old 09-08-2011, 06:00 PM   #35
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Default Re: Fren Tubo brake lines

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Sundog, we better see pics of this
You want pics of Sundogs pipe? Well, not that there's anything wrong with that or anything..
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Old 09-08-2011, 06:17 PM   #36
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Default Re: Fren Tubo brake lines

and one point for PJ!
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Let me introduce you to my taint. It's all sweaty and nasty from having a fever and chills all day yesterday, so it's just about prime for your enjoyment.
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Old 09-08-2011, 09:15 PM   #37
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Default Re: Fren Tubo brake lines

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You want pics of Sundogs pipe? Well, not that there's anything wrong with that or anything..
Daaaaaaaayum, man.

I was gonna make some BS remark about how much FZ1's suck just to watch you spazz ( )... but I didn't wanna mess with you too much since you don't post here much.
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Old 09-08-2011, 11:18 PM   #38
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Default Re: Fren Tubo brake lines

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You want pics of Sundogs pipe? Well, not that there's anything wrong with that or anything..
Boom! Walked into that one
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Old 09-09-2011, 10:40 AM   #39
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Default Re: Fren Tubo brake lines

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Sundog, we better see pics of this
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You want pics of Sundogs pipe? Well, not that there's anything wrong with that or anything..
Not only pictures, but a video too. I'm not even going to charge.

JB, I have a printout of the galvanic series on the wall at my desk. We deal with that issue all the time. I wish all architects were as aware of it as you.

Of course, I shouldn't be talking... my frankentail cluster / hardcase mount is made of aluminum, brass, and stainless steel all in contact. The aluminum stock struts are a little corroded. Not terrible.
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Old 09-09-2011, 11:00 AM   #40
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Default Re: Fren Tubo brake lines

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JB, I have a printout of the galvanic series on the wall at my desk. We deal with that issue all the time. I wish all architects were as aware of it as you.
Well you can't really hold it against them... I mean when you think of all the components and issue to coordinate in construction... it's insane. From wall systems, each material within that system, how that system interacts with other systems.... finishes, lighting, door hardware, millwork, flooring, the list is practically infinite.

Keep in mind there are also over a million new building products released annually.

I just happen to do a lot of marquees and fussy little shit. Where carbon structural steel and stainless fittings and aluminum interact, so I constantly call out to separate dissimilar metals.


But you can do this for five lifetimes and still never even scratch the surface.
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