Having trouble deciding who to vote for?

[DarkTint]

This survey could help. Although according to this I agree most with Hillary. :crazy

http://www.wqad.com/Global/link.asp?L=259460

[MitchAnstey]

For me, Hillary and Obama were tied at 53. I hope they both run as pres and vice pres. Although I'd prefer Obama as the pres.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

That quiz is total BS! It picked McCain! I hate McCain. He's not a conservative at all.

A lot of those questions were bogus as well.

Take the abortion one (uh oh here we go). It's not aways support or not. The real question is, does the constitutional right to have privacy mean that we have the right to abortion?

It's obvious to me that the framers did not have abortion in mind when writing that law. Therefore, since we live by federalism all things not in the constituion are settled by the states.

Let states vote on it. Just like gay marriage. Pro choice people know that if the people were to vote it would be shot down in every state. But if for some reason it wasn't, then let it be.

[rndthought]

The real question is, does the constitutional right to have privacy mean that we have the right to abortion?
You mean as long as it isn't "murder" Cause the law is quite clear on that.

The crux is "When do we begin ‘living’...?" From there I think it will be easy…

Plus those quiz things don’t cover the “X” factor… how you FEEL about the person…
You may not agree with everything but do you trust them to make balanced, rash, sane decisions…

[JBarx]

You may not agree with everything but do you trust them to make balanced, rash, sane decisions…
Good point there. I'm more of a McCain person myself, but the quiz put me with Romney. I could live with Obama, but if Hillary gets elected I am moving to Vancouver, BC.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

The crux is "When do we begin ‘living’...?" From there I think it will be easy…


Nope, see you can't win that argument. It's a fun exercise but you can't really convince one side or the other.

The real issue is the judiciary creating law instead of interpreting it like they are supposed to. The framers said we have the right to have a private life without the gov't invading your home and looking at your personal records. That's what the right to privacy was and is. The old guys in wigs never meant it to apply to abortion.

Therefor, it's a state right and should be voted on by the people. That's how it should be done, and everyone who has really studied this issue knows it.

[MitchAnstey]

I completely agree with the states' rights argument. The only problem with all of this is the Bush administration taking a stranglehold on the states and their rights. Cheney has a biography which paints an interesting picture of him and his quest toward a dominating executive branch. He supposedly always felt that the president should have more power, hence all the veto powers and changes to how wars can be started (in an emergency, the president doesn't need congress to declare war and get troops moving). That's why I hope we get a freaking democrat in office. I'm tired of our country going to hell.

[rndthought]

The crux is "When do we begin ‘living’...?" From there I think it will be easy…


Nope, see you can't win that argument. It's a fun exercise but you can't really convince one side or the other.

Therefore, it's a state right and should be voted on by the people. That's how it should be done, and everyone who has really studied this issue knows it.

Legally, in any state, you can't kill a human being who is 50 years "old"... can't kill one that is 5 years "old", can't kill one 5 day's "old", can't kill one 5 seconds "old", 5 nanoseconds "old".... Legally, condoms are ok. Plan B is ok. SO some where in-between cutting the cord and Plan "B" we got a problem...

I don't know the answer but pushing it down on to individual states doesn't move it along. At some point it becomes murder... and murder isn’t allowed even in the privacy of your own home no matter what State you are in.

But regardless of the Where... When they vote it is still gonna come down to: "When do we begin ‘living’...?"

[Super Sneaky Steve]

Ok, if you want to go down that road here's how I would rationalize it.

Something is either alive or dead. You can't be half dead, or kinda alive. It's one or the other.

So is a fetus alive? Yes, no argument there. So what kind of life form is it? It's not a moose, or a turkey, so it has to be human.

There you have it, it's human and it's alive. It has functioning organs, including a beating heart in most cases.

Just of my own opinion as soon as a sperm meets an egg it has all the genetic material to be a human therefor it is a human. And it will someday walk and talk given the chance to.

I think you'd be surprised at how many people feel the same way, but the voice of the people will never be heard if activist judges keep creating law as they see fit. Again, that's the real issue.

In the mean time I have to sit back and wait till some of those judges kick the bucket then roll the dice and hope we have a republican president to subit a reasonable apointee that can sneak past the democrats in congress.

Hey how about a term limit for supreme court justices? I think that's a great idea!

[rndthought]

Naw, now you are suggesting monkeying with what the "framers" put down... This would erode your "The framers said we have the right..." line of thought. Let's avoid this , no cherry picking or else bot sides get to...

BTW Steve, you and me are basically in the same place. I say once the fertilized egg starts dividing AND attaches to the uterine wall, all bets off.

Given your definition... are you anti Plan "B" (RU486)?

[Super Sneaky Steve]

What's plan B? A morning after drug?

[rndthought]

Steve, you led me to believe you've "studied" this issue... :? :wink:

Yeah, it's kinda like the inverse of "The Pill" in that it causes a spontaneous "period" (shedding of the uterine wall) thus not allowing a fertilized egg to attach. Available (in FLA anyway) from your pharmacist and although legally no Dr. note is needed, some may ask for one... Big issue because some pharmacists here say they won't dispense it because it goes against their beliefs... Some chain companies saying the same thing... Victim advocates groups want it available from candy vending machines... :roll:

It's also called the "Abortion" bill but given that no one can agree when anything starts, that's a bit of loaded name...

[JBarx]

The problem is identifying a true "line in the sand" because there are always exceptions... like rape, incest, etc. We've heard all the scenarios. I'm not a big fan of the "morning after" pill because more than anything else it caters to irresponsible behavior.

"Oh I can sleep with whoever I want because I can always get a pill in the morning if I am worried about getting pregnant".

Great.

If people would just wait until they were actually ready for the consequences of having sex before they started having sex, a lot of these issues would be moot. Yeah, right. I waited until I was 18 because if something happened where I got my girlfriend pregnant, at least I could man up.

Too bad our society just doesn't give a shit and people do whatever they want whenever they want and then expect everyone to chip in to fix their problems. It's so screwed up.

:(

[G00se]

The first heart beat doesn't happen until week 5.

I mean its really how people come up with various lines in the sand if you will on the issue.

Is it alive when the sperm hits the egg? When the Egg attaches to the wall. When its heart first beats. When it leaves the womb?

Every month a women doesn't conceive an egg "dies" there are cells that are alive and then discarded by the human body, we should throw them in jail because they are killing their eggs!

Should we throw women in jail who have miscarriages because of drug and alcohol use?

I have no problem with 1st trimester abortions. Realistically its a collection of cells that hasn't really formed into something that even looks human, it looks more like an alien at that point anyway.

We are overpopulating this planet with people who shouldn't breed.

I think its a personal choice within the 1st trimester. I feel its a much better alternative then having an unwanted and unloved dysfunctional member of society running around. I think that if these Pro-Life people really want these people to birth these children if they are so pro life why don't they adopt these unwanted children.

[rndthought]

The problem is identifying a true "line in the sand" because there are always exceptions...
Before dealing with exceptions, a rule for the "standard" case of "no reason other than I dont' want the process to progress" needs to be set... Depending on how that is answered...many of those "exceptions" could cease to be exceptions... right...? :wink:

The first heart beat doesn't happen until week 5.... I have no problem with 1st trimester abortions. Realistically its a collection of cells that hasn't really formed into something that even looks human, it looks more like an alien at that point anyway.
Interesting... Gestation is 38-40 weeks depending when you start counting. Terminology switches from embryo to fetus around 8 weeks (and to me it looks like a little person, medically this is when all the different specialized tissues found in an adult have been formed and are present in the, now called fetus) First trimester is listed as 13 weeks... This trimester point may make sense as a line but why? What's the significance of the "first trimester" mark (the heart beat thing is way inside that measure and so is the embryo/fetus line)? Is there anyway to scientifically measure or identify the transition to the second trimester...?

The good reasons for having an abortion, just like pushing the decision back down to the States, still doesn't get any closer to a rule of when it's too late to terminate. (For the record I think the mom has the right to terminate until she dies, no matter the age of the "child" :wink: at least that's what my Mom keeps threaten... ah... telling me :lol:)

[rndthought]

Realistically its a collection of cells that hasn't really formed into something that even looks human, it looks more like an alien at that point anyway.
Oh and yikes! With this rule, I could have been "aborted" well past my JR year in HS :lol:

Steve, look out, you may STILL be on the chopping block!!!! :lol: :lol:

[rndthought]

...anyone seen the movie Juno?

[Super Sneaky Steve]

See what you started RND? You'll never change minds with the line in the sand debate. You can't make someone care about something they don't care about.

Staying true to the constitution is the bigger issue and should be the focus of the debate beacause there is already a clear line drawn. It's just that some people ignore it.

But since we are on a downward spiral I can't resist a nice pile-on so here's some more gas for the fire.

I used to also be on the side of abortion being ok in cases of rape and incest till I read a line out of an Ann Coulter book (my favorite author). She said something to the effect of, sure Jesus would have supported abortion if rape or incest were involved. If you don't know Ann that was meant sarcasticly.

So going back to RND's line in the sand thing. No, a child doesn't deserve to die under any circumstance. Mass of cells or not.

And an egg or a sperm do not constitute a child because it doesn't have enough genetic material to form a human and would never become a human seperately.

[nYmYx]

I'm all for individual states dealing with all these issues the federal government insists on sticking their noses in. And whatever happened to the separation of church and state? 1st Amendment of the Constitution anyone???

[rndthought]

Change minds...hehehe, let’s just get ‘em jogging in place first ;) Was just exploring where these “lines” come from. Steve, you’ve stated your position, though not too different from mine, I’d still not agree with it, but it still has logic about it. I am pro-choice in as much as it makes sense, as applied to the gray area... I’ve gotta live with my decisions and others theirs. But there’s some where, some time that we should “all” be able to agree that the “do over” point has passed and the particular option of medical preventative intervention is off the table, special circumstances or not, state(s) or nationally defined. I’d not be as worried that people don’t agree with my logic or line as I would with people taking stances with (seemingly) no logic.

As for Ann, she’s gotta make a living – and in her biz, there is emphasis on the entertainment factor. She can subcontract her morality to Jesus (don’t think it’s a stretch that was more to provoke than to be her own personal view)...but the Constitution’s Bill of Rights says her benchmark doesn’t need be mine or anyone else’s in America (the knife cuts both ways). So to be a bit cheesy, “We the people...” are just left working for a consensus based on logic regardless if the “we” is the country as a whole or an individual state. We got a great frame but the people gotta do the work of making it something... All the laws and rules we live under spring froth from that document but are not defined in it.

Maybe I’m missing your bigger picture Steve/?, what is it about the constitution that precludes this from being a discussion, from decisions being made even if they are different for each state - or can't even a state decide where to put a line?

[Super Sneaky Steve]

Here's the deal. There is no "We the people..." in this law. There is no consensus. We didn't even vote in the people who made this law. It was created by a branch of gov't that isn't supposed to create anything, only interpret.

I'm not trying to convince people to believe in Jesus as I do, or to go blow up an abortion clinc. People beleive what they believe and there's no changing it.

It's like you're trying to argue what came first the chicken or the egg? It's pointless and goes no where. More importantly it keeps the debate emotional and spinning in circles. Lets handle it like we did gay marriage. Vote on it and watch it go down in flames.

Don't underestimate Ann either. She was a lawyer before being a writer and she's very smart and informed. The entertainment is just a bonus :D

[JBarx]

Don't underestimate Ann either. She was a lawyer before being a writer and she's very smart and informed. The entertainment is just a bonus :D
Tangent: I'm a registered Republican (I don't always vote that way though) but Ann Coulter is a freak. About one in ten things that come out of her mouth are poignant and clever but the rest is grandstanding.

Just my opinion. Don't get mad at me, Steve... it's just more Ann for you to have all to yourself.

:wink:

[rndthought]

JBarx: You are a bad Republican and Ann hates you... not as much as if you were a woman but none the less :lol:

The real question is, does the constitutional right to have privacy mean that we have the right to abortion?

I guess Steve. I don’t see it as a privacy or constitutional issue. It is either an elective medical procedure/treatment or it is taking a life. Both are allowed under certain conditions and the aspects as to the how, when and why are already well regulated. If there are still specific conditions that are inadequately or not addressed at all, then there are already procedures in place to correct this.

As for circles, the only circle I see in the nation is the one that keeps going around defining when it becomes an “abortion” of a “person”... Think about this, it’s illegal to abort yourself (suicide)... right or wrong the system is terribly inconsistent.

Chugging down your road Steve, it’s like saying “we have the right to bear arms under the second amendment.” Well of course it says so! Does everyone have the right to have any arm and bear it at any time...errr I hope not, now we are back in the trenches.

People beleive what they believe and there's no changing it.
You are too young for such fatalism, people most certainly can and occasionally against all odds do change.... sometimes these people drag an entire nation with them. But it’s never easy and doesn’t come without some sacrifice.

Ann, yes she is very smart, maybe maybe even smarter than me... certainly she is luckier but is she happier? Does she have a 599 with Rizoma Dynamic mirrors? NO. :wink: Was just pointing out where her lunch money comes from...that’s all. Her words and motives must be considered with that perspective. She is no less a whore than me.

Lets handle it like we did gay marriage. Vote on it and watch it go down in flames.
Same sex marriage has an easy definition, with two easily defined states... SAME or DIFFERENT (Why is marriage even an issue anyway, keep it in the church, let states do civil unions for all legal issues and let’s move on, and you make it sound like the issue is over...)

I just can’t get over the hump of before we can have a right to it (or not to it) before we can vote on it, it’s gotta be defined, what is “it”...?

Ok here is an interesting tact... Let’s put the question back to the people...
How would you word “The Vote”...?

[Opticycler]

....And whatever happened to the separation of church and state? 1st Amendment of the Constitution anyone???

I just had to chime in on this one, as I feel it's a commonly missinterpreted amendment. "Congress shall make no LAW respecting an establishment of religion,"....
No where does it say that church and state must be separate. Just calling it as I see it.

And while I'm at it, I find the 2nd amendment to be quite simple to understand too. What part of ",the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" don't people understand? And don't tell me it's about the comma's in the amendment, or about only being in a militia.

Ann Coulter? I find her entertaining. She's figured out how to make a lot of money. I guess I like her, but I tend to favor brunettes.

"Pro-Choice"? -call it what you like, but killing is killing. I guess the "pro-choice" label makes them feel better about what they're doing. I wonder how many pro-choice people would respect a person's choice to carry a gun to protect themselves? Not many I'd bet.

And to those candidates who say the constitution is a "living document", I say, if you remove the foundation, the whole society will collapse. A "living document" as pertaining to the constitution means absolutely nothing.

How's that for an open can of worms!!
Sorry if I've swerved off course a little. Just had to vent.
OK, I'm through now.

[DarkTint]

:lol:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v603/DarkTint/ThreadDirection.jpg

[Super Sneaky Steve]

....And whatever happened to the separation of church and state? 1st Amendment of the Constitution anyone???

I just had to chime in on this one, as I feel it's a commonly missinterpreted amendment. "Congress shall make no LAW respecting an establishment of religion,"....
No where does it say that church and state must be separate. Just calling it as I see it.

And while I'm at it, I find the 2nd amendment to be quite simple to understand too. What part of ",the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" don't people understand? And don't tell me it's about the comma's in the amendment, or about only being in a militia.

Ann Coulter? I find her entertaining. She's figured out how to make a lot of money. I guess I like her, but I tend to favor brunettes.

"Pro-Choice"? -call it what you like, but killing is killing. I guess the "pro-choice" label makes them feel better about what they're doing. I wonder how many pro-choice people would respect a person's choice to carry a gun to protect themselves? Not many I'd bet.

And to those candidates who say the constitution is a "living document", I say, if you remove the foundation, the whole society will collapse. A "living document" as pertaining to the constitution means absolutely nothing.

How's that for an open can of worms!!
Sorry if I've swerved off course a little. Just had to vent.
OK, I'm through now.

+1 well said! From a northeasterner no less!

Back to Ann, you have to understand her intent. A lot of the seemingly stuipd things that inflame people were said just for that reason. It's all well thought out. Her last book was more comedy than anything.

RND, have you even managed to change one mind yet? I mean someone who had their mind made up for good reason. Not the wishy-washy fence sitters. I'll bet you a cheeseburger that you can't change mine! :wink:

[rndthought]

RND, have you even managed to change one mind yet?... I'll bet you a cheeseburger that you can't change mine! :wink:
Why would I want to? I like your view point, it has logic. Just because I have some exceptions, doesn’t mean it is not a valid conclusion. Is there is only one way ever...it's either right or it's wrong? Hahahaha...

I'm out to change no minds (interesting you keep pushing this way though), but I'm gonna be thinking anyway, if a fence sitter or anyone gets to thinking too, then I win double! Regardless what someone thinks, if they came to it through thought and are able to express it logically then we all win, so long as they came to a conclusion and not co-opted one. (kinda but not really like Ann's tactic, I mean #2 after "make bank")

Lighten up, not everyone that is different wants you to be like them... it's just a discussion. How boring would like a nation full of Yuppers be...? Well ok, that'd be funny. Tragic, but funny.

nYmYx - When did "arms" automatically = guns? And because it is a "Living (changeable) Document"... we got things like... the 2nd Amendment "right to bear arms" to discuss :lol:

[Opticycler]

When did "arms" automatically = guns? And because it is a "Living (changeable) Document"... we got things like... the 2nd Amendment "right to bear arms" to discuss :lol:

Actually, that was me....anyway, I think there's a difference between Changing the constitution, and Adding to it.
But then there's the 18th and 21st amendments, the no-booze, pro-booze amendment's.-The plot thickens.... :?

[Super Sneaky Steve]

Lighten up, not everyone that is different wants you to be like them... it's just a discussion. How boring would like a nation full of Yuppers be...? Well ok, that'd be funny. Tragic, but funny.


Hey you got me wrong. I love verbal sparring matches with people who try to make points (not bomb throwers). That's why this thread has gone on for so long. I'm having fun.

When it comes to discussions then I have a live and let live mentality. The lets all hold hands and sing songs deal. But when it comes down to crafting policy that we all have to live by then I want my side to win. I don't want to reach out to the other side and compromise.

Since we don't vote on legeslation here at honda599.com that second part is moot. So take my hand and lets sing something from The Monkeys :D

[JBarx]

"Take the last train to Clarksville,
And I'll meet you at the station...."

Sorry.

:D

[GuyD]

First off, I have a strong belief in the second amendment. Me and mine are protected by Mr. Mossberg with a pistol grip and the capacity for six double aught buckshot shells in the tube and one in the chamber. Clint Eastwood never had it so good, LOL. I'd get me a bushmaster for fun as well but can't afford it right now. When it comes to concealed carry I have mixed opnions; it seems obvious to me any pyscho could buy a long gun and do as much damage as someone with a pistol but then again I don't want any reject with $800 carrying around a sig P228 or something.

Now for abortion. There is a point of medical viability of the fetus without the mother and it's past the first trimester. Bottom line, if you had a non-viable growth expanding in your midsection and had the choice to excise it before it changed your life irretrievably would you do it? Damn straight you would. Forcing unborn kids to live what most likely will be a shitty childhood with a mother who shouldn't have gotten pregnant in the first place is a recipe for disaster. We see it every day in the headlines. I hate to be too serious, but when it comes to the above issues I have lots of passion to go along with my weapons and my belief in a right for an individual to choose their own path in life as outlined in a lot of words that should still have meaning to us citizens

And RND, when I get my rizoma dynamics on my bike, I'll be even happier breaking every speed limit in the county in 3rd gear on a back road. THAT'S FREEDOM TO ME, ESPECIALLY WHEN I DON'T GET CAUGHT!!!!! :lol: :lol:

[JHenley17]

...anyone seen the movie Juno?

Is it wrong to be in love with a character that's 16 if the actress playing said character is actually in her 20s?

[rndthought]

I believe in the 2nd Amendment too, but not that “arms” means explicitly “guns” or that by “arms” they meant any and all weapons without regulation, otherwise how do you apply the logic to K-Mart selling shot guns but not allowed to sell full auto assault rifles, Plastic Explosives, mustard gas or grenades? It’s legal to carry a knife under x” but illegal over... Brass knuckles, illegal and you don’t seem too upset about that. It’s ok to limit certain classes of guns and weapons but not all? Makes no sense if you are thumping the 2nd as a reason to have guns in the first place.

Forcing unborn kids to live what most likely will be a shitty childhood with a mother who shouldn't have gotten pregnant in the first place is a recipe for disaster.
Yeah, that’s why I’m jealous of Ann Coulter. Wonder how she woulda like life down in the middle class... Yikes, Mom thinking like that may have robbed you of the pleasure that is me!

First trimester ”medical viability,” explain what you mean by that... youngest ever premature baby to survive is 21 weeks (with life long complications) full term is around 40 weeks.

Honestly, when someone makes a mistake - usually they are forced to deal with the consequences, the legal system is geard to make people pay for their actions and the population gets upset when they don't... interesting to me that here (and with bankruptcies, screw you Kmart :( ), presently we make large concessions... And if money time effort and emotion are gonna be spent, wouldn’t it make more sense to invest it BEFORE they get preggers? And I wouldn’t want to tell any poor underprivileged/abused/adopted child that made something of him/herself that their mother shouldn’t have “forced” them to grow up like they did...just saying, sometimes any alive is better than dead – just ask Stephen Hawkins, his wife and kids.... See, tuff and unbearable... not "worth it" is soooo relative, we need a mark that can logically be determined.

Steve... Glad this is just an exercise among friends, feelings in check and all... :grouphug
But as for a discussion, I’m not getting much from you outside the Ann quote... Why/how is it a privacy issue?
Maybe it shouldn't be protected under "privatcy"...either way at some point it will need to fall into some criminal definition of "kill." How would you word this vote you want? When you half to say “abortion,” what are you talking about? What’s its definition...? Or again, am I missing your big picture?

"But when it comes down to crafting policy that we all have to live by then I want my side to win." Your side...? Gosh there are as many sides to this as there are people looking at it... Hay, what is "your side" anyway?

JHenley17... Not with a 10' pole :wink: There are times, that it is better not to speak or act on a thought...like when I posted in this thread for example... :lol: If you are Catholic... then you are going to hell anyway...but still don’t speak or act. :wink:

[Super Sneaky Steve]

But as for a discussion, I’m not getting much from you outside the Ann quote... Why/how is it a privacy issue?
Maybe it shouldn't be protected under "privatcy"...either way at some point it will need to fall into some criminal definition of "kill." How would you word this vote you want? When you half to say “abortion,” what are you talking about? What’s its definition...? Or again, am I missing your big picture?

"But when it comes down to crafting policy that we all have to live by then I want my side to win." Your side...? Gosh there are as many sides to this as there are people looking at it... Hay, what is "your side" anyway?

JHenley17... Not with a 10' pole :wink: There are times, that it is better not to speak or act on a thought...like when I posted in this thread for example... :lol: If you are Catholic... then you are going to hell anyway...but still don’t speak or act. :wink:

I'd let people who write the laws write it. All I want to do is have a chance to cast my vote. I won't waste time and energy throwing out cliches or snappy one liners. You vote your heart I'll vote mine. But if I was the supreme dictator of America I would define abortion as any induced terminated pregnancy. Still fuzzy I know, but that's not the point. If I don't like the wording I'll just vote no till it came up again.

For the child with a bad mom. Maybe the kid should be asked, Would you like an incision in the back of your head then have your brain sucked out with a vacuum? That's how some late term abortions are done. How about dad? Why doesn't he get a say in his child? There are people on long waiting lists who want to adopt, so the bad mom thing simply doesn't hold up. See how this can go on and on?

[rndthought]

...There are people on long waiting lists who want to adopt, so the bad mom thing simply doesn't hold up. See how this can go on and on?
Oh I sure do see how it goes on and on... Anyway, at the end of the day we ain’t solving anything here... just flapping our gums. It's mental exercise.

Oh, and every time I'm at the grocery and see a tabloid with Brangelina or Madonna with their kids, I wonder what orphans here in the States think `bout it... Talk about hitting the lotto...

[JillGat]

Just curious how you who favor laws outlawing abortion feel about other issues related to "life" such as:

- the war in Iraq - any idea how many civilians (including children) have been killed so far in this war?

- the death penalty

- stem cell research

- access to birth control and sex education for teenagers

Here's what I think, because I know you want to know!

1. Abortion is a tragic failure and if there's any chance education and access to birth control can prevent abortion, then those who think abortion is murder should support these preventive measures. If emergency contraception (Plan B/Morning After pill) "promotes irresponsible behavior," then you're saying the just punishment is to force these irresponsible people to become parents of unplanned, unwanted children. :shock:

2. Being in favor of the war in Iraq - that is proving nothing - and the death penalty but against abortion because you are "pro-life" is contradictory.

3. How come many anti-abortion folks are against embryonic stem cell research but not against fertility clinics? Do you know where the embryos come from for stem cell research (that has the potential to save and improve many lives)? The embryos come from fertility clinics, where embryos are now being created and routinely destroyed. The ones slated for destruction are the ones being used for the stem cell research.

Again, I am not "pro-abortion." I think we should do all we can to prevent abortions. Most people who have had them probably feel the same way.

[JillGat]

PS - Yes, Steve, there are "long lists of people who want to adopt."

But there are also many kids who are not being adopted. I suggest that all pro-life people adopt kids who are non-white, handicapped, developmentally delayed and/or older than infancy.

- Mom of an adopted son from Jamaica.

[MitchAnstey]

Nicely put Jill. That's interesting about the fertility clinics and stem cells.

I almost wrote something, and then I saw what RND wrote in an earlier post near the top. That was a well thought out approach to the matter and well said also. Much respect to you, sir.

[rndthought]

Yeah Jill there is all directions to approach this... I was just trying to stay on one. When you say abortion is a tragic failure.. I’m still gonna be asking what your definition of the loaded word “abortion” is? It’s a medical procedure but this doesn’t’ help to decide if/when it is morally ok to do it. When does aborting a fetus become no questions asked, “killing” of a human being?

As for some of the other points you bring up...they are a bit pre biased... IF you already don’t think of a fertilized egg as “life” then of course there’s no issue with destroying “embryos” or using them for research. So right there you’re preaching to the choir and no longer building on a point.

And it’s a cute request, “pro-life” people go adopt... but I don’t think even in the most liberal definition of “pro-life” it comes close to “wants (more) children.”

I’m lost maybe you can help with YOUR views... What is “pro-life” and “pro/anti-abortion”? You used both terms... Are they different... are they the same... what is your definition of “life”... definition of “abortion”... when you say "pro" or "anti," is that preclude any conditionals?

Lastly... your "...force these irresponsible people to become parents of unplanned, unwanted children.” Don’t know if you intentionally when this direction but to say unplanned/unwanted equates to unloved or abused is a silly... Every unplanned/unwanted child you show me that ends up unloved, I’ll find you one that was planned by "responsible" parents, maybe even requiring thousands of dollars in fertility treatments, and were still abused/unloved. Got it? There’s no ground to stand on there - one does not beget the other.

Man, you’ve doomed these “underprivileged” embryo/fetuses and “irresponsible” parents (or potential parents I guess) before they’ve ever had a chance to step up... I think they are genuinely rooted in an ideal of practicality, but fatalistic attitudes none the less.

So let’s let go of this "irresponsible/unwanted" stupidity as it applies to parents and kids. Any parent(s) can F-a kid up. No matter what class status, how much cash, what privileges, education, reasons for having a child or whatever. I would like to see free classes for any and all couples and parents. Classes would go a long way to helping all kids and haggard parents who are well meaning but due to their poor upbringing are lacking in skills.